Combine this with the complacency that comes with handling a firearm over-and-over again as you holster and unholster a firearm throughout the day, its not surprising that many of these officers are saying it just went off as a negligent discharge can cost them their job if it lead to serious injury or property damage. Quite frankly, a sizable number of the LEOs that go there, would benefit from a Gun Safety 101 class. https://millsentertainment.smugmug.com/William-Shatner-The-Wrath-of-Khan Rather, it's because those LEO P320 pistols are seeing much more physical action than ones carried by civilians. I agree. First off, no joke on me. I have been purchasing and using Sig firearms exclusively for over 40 years. ! while being accompanied by some form of obvious stupidity like putting an unholstered gun in a gym bag with other stuff. Let us look at the history of other consumer products. Theyve now come to the attention of the legacy media. Wheee!!. -You plan on getting rid of your P320, great! Anyway there was one good thing to come from those movies, The USS Vengeance. But now, P320 is the subject. DND/CAF is not in a position at this stage in its investigation to offer insight into the potential causes because our investigation scope is broader than the technical aspect pertaining to the unintended discharge of the pistol.. The design was incorporated from Bruce Grays trigger kit around the time of the original drop safety fix. This leads me to conclude that the problem is not the gear but the moron using it. The truth is the absolute WORST semi-autos that Sig, H&K, Walther, Beretta or Glock makes today are more reliable than the best semi-autos made 40 years ago, by far. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. But it also has much worse quality control on the parts in my experience owning and working on both. No Warp core, just a quantum singularity, The engine was basically a dorm fridge. First I have no problem with the Mk 25 or any other Sig thats metal. Whether or not the suits have merit. Its not happening on your person without some catastrophic event. At least the Lion roars when he is hungry, the C.E.O smiles at you and when you turn your back he puts a knife right into it. While it seems that I have a preference for battle ships, The Romulans had Warbirds. The cost of settlements will be passed on to us. He said hes a gun owner and a concealed carry permit holder. His annual qualification consisted of shooting 32 rounds. Yes, but that did not mean the machine would be able to go on being marketed like that. Second, your claim that the military is dumping because theyre problematic? What it likely means is that cops and other law enforcement officers carry and handle their guns far more often than the average Joe or Jane. So I give a ton of credit to Shatner for reading the reality of what it was and in essence, saving it. Weird how that might happen. All polymer guns are cheap, cheap, cheap to make, thats why I threw the Taurus name into the mix. Sig P320 is just one of many pistols with Safety related. As for Seals they have their own contract with Glock but can carry anything they want. Theres just too much other paraphernalia bouncing around in there. Someone is going to read this thread and be bewildered. While we dont have the actual numbers of similar lawsuits filed against other gun makers actually no one individual or organization seems to keep track of these things and gun makers dont want to talk about it it seems highly likely that every major firearm manufacturer gets its share of a regular flow of lawsuits filed by both civilians and LEOs who claim SHAZAM! Funny how that works. On Thursday, M.D. How many times does a pistol have to malfunction before you blame it? The safety WILL prevent the gun from firing with a trigger pull when activated, but it should never come to that. At rest, cocked, it may very well have enough oomph to set some primers off. Maybe its a technical issue, maybe its a training issue. But just the same- a gun going off from momentum? TAMPA, Fla., July 27, 2021 /PRNewswire/ -- A 30-year veteran law enforcement officer with the Tampa Police Department (TPD) today filed a lawsuit against Sig Sauer, Inc., the maker of his. But Shatner? About $300. PDs are dropping them from contracts. Its also beyond debate that current production Sig quality is drastically inferior to what it once was, particularly the German made pieces. Then theres the fact that the branches of the military have put the P320 design through their own batteries of testing and found it duty worthy. The Glocks trigger had caught on a fold in the leather holster and it pushed the trigger part way back. Being highly trained doesnt eliminate stupidity. Sig can burn for all I care. SIG is choosing to litigate their problems away. He is acting as a consultant in the Collette suit that was filed last week. Remember also that with a handful of notable exceptions, modern firearms do not just go off, no matter what is later claimed by those who may be held responsible. He had to be reprimanded by the range officer twice for unsafe handling of his pistol. After all, there are limits on complying with Rule 2 and even Rule 3, because a gun muzzle is ALWAYS covering something, somewhere, and ALWAYS knowing what lies beyondperhaps FAR beyonda possible target is an impossibility. There was no holster involved. You need to deliberately thumb the Pythons hammer back to get that trigger pull, each and every time. You would have to conclude theres a problem with the product, not with the people., In the Nightline version, Bagnell says, Firearms are not subject to federal regulation. Police officers do NOT get a lot of training unless theyre doing it on their own time at their own expense. A holstered base P320 allegedly had a mysterious accidental discharge without pulling the trigger. Oct 20, 2022 #36 ; vh20 said: . The claimed mode of failure was that the tab on the drop safety that interferes with the striker movement had been sheered off and stopped being a drop safety. But as Officer Hilton says, There is no way anything could have gotten into my purseinto the trigger guard and pulled that trigger., This ABC report includes an interview with Joshua Harrison, a firearms expert hired by the network to examine the P320s design and give his opinion of its safety. who sells them? But when you set a gun down on a table, and the damn thing goes off seconds after you let go, that sounds like a defective gun. If you can make the trigger move backwards, all bets are off. Hes like the arrogant star QB on your favorite football teamyeah, you would never want to spend a weekend with him at the lake cabin, but your franchise would be little to nothing without him. I dont own a P320. It doesnt matter whether SIG is at fault or not. He wanted TTAG to convey that hes pro-Second Amendment. If the P320 was so great then why did special forces go to the Glock 19? I dunno if its a case of lowest bidders blues or what. So does any of this mean theres something wrong with the P320? Trying to categorically say Brand X is better than Brand Y! Training and experience are not a talisman that magically prevents accidents. https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailboxes/@.id==VjN-iN4Wr8P_P2lGU6m2M5Rd8F6tVxyeeWdzleA_0eUoKjB0wER5wbVU_ouLj3uKCvLmUWhjIv2uHVC2R0Wv8Q9VgQ/messages/@.id==AMxkWSMoHX4bYSzMKA0AINojDH4/content/parts/@.id==2/refresh?appid=YMailNorrinLaunch&ymreqid=ae6c4f7d-acdd-ffa3-1c80-d70000011c00. Anyway around here they do. Bagnell also represented Virginia Sheriffs Deputy Marcie Vadnais who sued SIG when she said her P320 went off on its own when she was removing the weapon from her belt. Vadnais was featured in the Nightline version of ABCs report. LOL! how do I get one for my P320? JTF-2 is the only unit in. Period. Theyve also been adopted as duty guns by law enforcement agencies across the country. Using an example from the first prong, we legitimately fault the user who shot himself in the palm, rightfully asking why in the WORLD his palm was in front of the muzzle when he set the gun down. As far as ships go, Im drawn to the original movie vessels because they look the most, to me, like something youd really see humans build in space in 300 years. So I will just continue to carry Mexican style with my striker fired polymer wonder nine from a company that may or may not be SIG. Post again when you buy a real gun that you can defend yourself with. Have you ever noticed that big trouble usually comes in groups of 3. In 1982 the G17 hit the market and in 1983 they gave 30,000 pistols to the Austrian military at cost. NEWINGTON - A Hillsboro man is suing Newington gunmaker Sig Sauer alleging his Sig P320 pistol fired, without him pulling the trigger, causing a bullet to be discharged into his thigh. Later when he was driving he shifted his weight and this caused the trigger to be pushed back further and it went off and shot him and the bullet then also blew a big hole in the floor board of this truck. Then without any extra effort, the normal trigger pull caused the tab on the drop safety to sheer off. Clients such as law enforcement officers whose negligent discharges could result in their being disciplined or fired unless it can be proven that the gun was at fault. Or you would have to have enough slide play for the slide movement to physically disengage the sear and striker leg mating surfaces. I wish nothing bad on anyone carrying regardless of brand. He said there has to be something wrong with the gun if this is happening to individuals with this amount of training, this amount of skill.. Alec Baldwin fatally shot a cinematographer and injured a director with a prop gun on the set of the film "Rust" and the distraught actor repeatedly asked afterwards why he . The pistol is popular with commercial gun owners and law enforcement south of the border. SIG P320s were just the start and the P365 isnt far behind. So your fanboy perjorative falls not only flat but false. It sounds the same as arguing whether Captain Marvel could beat Superman up in a fist fight its pretty absurd and laughable. Yes, conspiracy to defraud is a thing when ones @ss is on the line. An x-ray (fluoroscope) of the mechanism in operation could show what, if anything, is happening inside the gun that might prove, or disprove, the contention that the gun is flawed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0LUbLu6TqA, Simply put, the P320 is not safe and the lawsuits arent frivolous. Not too long after they sold a pistol to the public and United States military thats not even DROP SAFE?!? I still own them all. There are several stories about her in the news for various no reasons, she must be throwing them out by a dozen. Its just that with hundreds of millions of firearms in the hands of more than one-third of the countrys population including a lot of cops some number of negligent discharges will inevitably happen. . So far I have only heard of one instance (post fix) where there was an ND and the post mortem on the gun demonstrating a mechanical failure. I wont argue theyre wrong, I dont own one, dont want to. Ive seen similar situations at our Municipal range. There were a lot of changes. Note also that ABC didnt provide any context for the number of suits filed against SIG. Maybe in South America a poor military did, but thatd be about it. This highly trained Fibbie was doing flips while dancing (breakdancing? It was one of the first ones and was sent back as a voluntary upgrade. U.S. lawsuits 01:10. three changes to the original design. (unless theyre SWAT or something). Time will tell if no. This gun had been voluntary upgraded. But it hardly indicts the P320 as a badly engineered weapon or that its worse than another brand. Stinking Lawyers and quota cops. With the redesign, you would have to implement a LOT of force to move the trigger backwards. Then Weve got to go 9mm Nato. And hasnt been nothing but looking for the holy grail since. The incident with the P320 - a contender for a major Canadian Armed Forces procurement of thousands of pistols and holsters that has a Aug. 3 deadline for industry proposals - occurred at JTF-2's Dwyer Hill training range just west of Ottawa. Was it his fault? As a striker-fired pistol, the P320 is "under constant pressure to fire," Bagnell said. Instead we see a Sig that is ran by Mr. Cohen of Kimber fame have repeated quality and product development failures. At the risk of sounding superstitious lets review Sigs latest turd pistol. And the idea some random comment section P320 hater thinks theyre smarter & more knowledgeable than the Army, Navy, Airforce, Coast Guard and Marine Corp combined regarding military pistol selection is just freaking laughable! Excellent work. Bineau added the review is looking at so-called ancillary equipment (meaning the holster and other items) as one element of that broader investigation. So, unlike the Serpa holster debate, Im a believer that there is more going on than meets the eye with the P320 and is exactly why I refrained from buying one, why I still wont own one, and why I steer people away from it. I continue to bet my life on them. ), and the gun fell out of his pocket. As to prong 2, there is a considerable difference between the mechanism of a 320 and, say, ones basic Glock, in that a 320 is fully cocked, whereas a Glock is half-cocked until the trigger is fully depressed, with the striker remaining locked by the striker safety plunger until that is released by a cam on the trigger bar. First, keep in mind that allegations made in lawsuits are not statements of fact. And as far as Special Forces go, SF going to Glock has been documented as a bean counters solution to save money. Anyway my question for $600 would be: Did you have your 3rd wife killed? Hilton's $15 million lawsuit said, "there have been 54 reported uncommanded discharges of the P320," meaning the gun went off by itself, over the last five years in 22 states and Washington, D.C. The more someone touches, loads, clears, cleans, holsters, un-holsters, or otherwise deals with their firearm, the higher the statistical likelihood that complacence kicks in. The current allegations, then, are different, claiming that the P320 is prone to un-commanded discharges.. Give me a break. People who know how to handle guns prudently and safely. The heads up testing was immediately finished the Sig was the winner. Its a novelty, its got issues! Some of the plaintiffs claim the pistol can fire without the trigger even being touched. And the fact they used real models, and big ones, gives the ships a real sense of heft, mass, movement and solidity that the garbage CGI ships of the new movies just cannot remotely compete with. The real tell is that of all the cases, most are cops of some kind. A lot like carrying a cocked and locked 1911 but with the safety off. Its the expert who gets caught up in the routine and stops paying attention. Glock is being sued too, because once loaded and a round is chambered, it also has a much lighter trigger than a DA/SA. Hello perpetrators, Lee Paige is clearly the gift that keeps on giving though our buddy Hunter Biden is a close second! I dont know nothing about Sigs, I do know any gunm that goes off when I lay it on a table gets sold with a warning and I never touch that brand or model again. I would rather play handball with the Devil himself because if you deal with the Devil he will tell you that you agreed to lose your soul for a big box full of millions in cash. We will respect the ongoing investigation and will not offer further comment at this time, Bineau said. Contacted late Friday, a spokeswoman for special forces said the investigation is still ongoing and would not confirm the companys findings. The fact is that the plaintiffs will get paid regardless of who did what. These lawsuits ARE about SIG making defective weapons. Fact is most SF carry what they want and the Marine Recon I know very well who has friends in that community told me many in the Navy NSW program still carry the Mk 25, they don want a striker fired pistol that can hydrolock in water. If it were a lowered tier manufacturer like a Taurus having allegations made against them, people would run with it without thinking twice. Just 3 days ago, a Florida Corrections recruit killed herself by a negligent discharge during firearms training. Seems a bit apologetic to me. Like many of our readers, weve been watching the slow drip, drip, drip of lawsuits accumulate over the past couple of years against SIG Sauer. Both versions of the ABC report included comments from Officer Hiltons attorney, Jeffrey Bagnell, who said, Its not credible to claim that people with this amount of training, this amount of skill are all shooting themselves. Whats the difference between a $600 Sig and a $300 Taurus? This subject has two prongs; One is the negligence of those who have shot themselves with 320s through violations of Rule 2, the other the possible mechanical design failing of the gun. And people have a way of looking for ways to deflect blame for those discharges, especially when they stand to lose their job as a result. Not sure why it wont let me reply to you, but Ill reply to myself in the hope youll get it. Hammer guns have a half cock notch for a reason. Thats the same. The problem was strikers. Canadian soldier wounded by accidental discharge used wrong holster: SIG Sauer The P320 Voluntary Upgrade Program is a SIG SAUER initiative to upgrade P320 pistols at no additional cost . The sheriff's office said its investigation found no mechanical problems with its deputy's gun. If this were a car, a phone, a refrigerator, it would have been recalled long ago. Back in 2017, SIG instituted a voluntary upgrade program to replace the original production triggers with new enhanced triggers designed to fix the issue that we and others observed when the pistols were dropped onto hard surfaces. If they recruit smart cops, they wont have cops who will act against their political opponents outside of the constitution. I used to laugh at his bragging about how skilled he was with a weapon.. Its not credible to claim that people with this amount of training, this amount of skill are all shooting themselves.. Seems kind of like a Sig apologist article. It isnt the beginner woodworker who loses fingers. The claim basically boils down to the notion that in normal, unconcerning operation, a foreign body entered the striker body. Theres still the P938 extractors snapping they refuse to acknowledge. There used to be a problem, which is why Sig fixed it. 1) The p320 doesnt hold the striker fully to the rear. He probably had a double until it was over. She claims that her holstered P320 pistol went off while she was carrying it in her purse. Glocks have gone off when people attempted to holster them and after they have holstered them, some times way later after holstering them like the fellow that got into his pickup truck. I went to an outdoor public range with a local SWAT entry team leader. "It has a clear capacity to fire without the trigger being pulled under certain conditions," said Hilton's lawyer, Jeffrey Bagnell. A plastic gun that has a tendency to go off by itself. The weapon had a history of going off unexpectedly when it was dropped at a certain angle. When he put his hand on the grip, the weapon fired, according to the lawsuit. 1.A rush to market, and as usual the blind greed of the gun companies who no longer test pistols before marketing them think it is cheaper (so the idiots think) to let the public test them. The clearest memory I have about the many people experiencing post-upgrade discharges is a cop who set his P320 on a table, and several seconds after letting go, IT DISCHARGED ON ITS OWN! That being the case, the 320 is a cocked and locked striker-fired gun; However, it only has two safeties, unlike, say, a 1911, which has four: An inertial firing pin, a positive firing-pin locking safety, a manual sear-locking/blocking safety, and a trigger-bar-blocking grip safety. Aint been nothing but problems since the military dropped the 1911, what was it 85 year of trusted service? And it doesnt take too much Googling to find plenty of reports of LEOs suing the Georgia company as well (see here, here, here, and here for just a few). People who had problems have been replacing them with Lightning Strike SS ones. Liberal, Conservative. Result: Sig P320 goes off when dropped and shoots people. I could care but that came at the expense of reliability and safety. Face it, you paid far too much for a plastic gun. I can say we are aware of the statement released by SIG SAUER, said Maj. Amber Bineau. These lawsuits arent about Sig making a defective weapon, theyre about lawyers building a nationwide consensus in civil trial that makes it easier (and more lucrative) to soak gunmakers. Theyre cheering for a noose around their own precious Glocks throat. Especially since they farm it out to the lowest bidder. They cant even make claim to doing a twice a year qual. 2. If the military was going to go cheap then they should have thrown Taurus into the mix. The company didnt want to comment on any specific pending litigation for obvious reasons. Whats this silly BS? and youve gotten this far reading our thread. And yes, if I pulled some of those stunts, Id have my membership revoked. The trigger bar has to push up on it, for it to release. Sound familiar? SIG just cannot seem to make a striker fired pistol that doesnt have issues. The weapons are currently on the shelf and the soldiers have returned to using their older model SIG P226s. ! only reveals ones immature emotional attachment to an inanimate object, which reveals a pretty childish worldview. The suit mirrors lawsuits filed across the country involving the semi-automatic gun known as the P320. Jeff Bagnell, a lawyer in Westport, Conn., who has litigated 10 cases, mostly by commercial gun owners, related to SIG P320 misfires across several U.S. states, took note of the accident involving the Canadian special forces soldier. Holding the striker fully cocked with nothing to block it if the sear fails is questionable at best. Use a proper holster and follow other gun safety protocols. CBC News reached out to Sig Sauer and its Canadian distributor, M.D. I can say one thing for sure, the X on the side of the my is about is welcoming to me as grip zone was. The P320 pistol is a dog. Look a fanboy. To make the striker leg pull off of the sear, you would have to impart a lot of rearward momentum and stop it suddenly. I know there are those who will vehemently disagree with me, and even disparage me but I have been following this issue from early on, BUT I recall CLEARLY that there have been dozens and dozens of discharges that could not be attributed to operator error and people experiencing these uncommanded discharges both before AND after getting the trigger upgrade. So it never had a history of a potential valid claim for ambulance chasers to work off of. Then when the gun still wouldnt operate right, field stripped it and cleared the debris, but didnt understand the gun enough to realize it was now super broken. Slowly people are realizing they arent the only ones having issues. But the reality is that the military has been using the Sig P320 for almost 5 years and they show no signs of changing. I wouldnt be surprised if she did it intentionally, she clearly suffers from a serious case of media whoring. The investigation revealed the use of an incorrect holster not designed for a [SIG] P320, said the statement, which was released Friday and posted to a U.S. online pro-industry publication, Soldier Systems. Personally they should have gone with the Glock, its not for me but is a proven gun. It offers the quality and reliability of Sig Sauer, with a tried and true striker system and ingenious features that make it a novel gun.
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